The Malaysian Insider pictures by Choo Choy May
DEBRA CHONG's one-on-one with Datuk Shahrir Abdul Samad, Minister of Domestic Trade and Consumer Affairs and MP for Johor Baru
KUALA LUMPUR, April 21 – It's been almost 2 months after the general elections and for many people, there is still no clear sense of direction of where the country is headed. One second, we see the Prime Minister striding forth and calling for reforms. The next, another leader steps up and on a few words, appears to undo the Prime Minister's bold plans.
At times like these when the nation's leaders are caught up in power quibbles, the next best thing to do is look towards a leader who has been steadily ploughing onwards, fulfilling the work that needs doing.
One such person is Datuk Shahrir Abdul Samad, the long-serving member of Parliament for Johor Baru and newly-appointed Minister of Domestic Trade and Consumer Affairs. Many see the outspoken Shahrir, a former chairman of the Barisan Nasional Backbenchers Club, as a politician with a conscience, who continues to hold the rakyat's interests at heart.
In these desperate times, he shares his thoughts on the domestic chaos and reassures The Malaysian Insider that these perceived troubles will not break the country.
Q: To non-Umno members it seems like Umno is dividing again, like what has happened in the past. What are your thoughts on the current state of affairs that seems to have cleft Umno into two?
SAS: I don't see any factions emerging because if we go back to 1987, there was Semangat 46 and in 1999, there was (Datuk Seri) Anwar (Ibrahim) and Keadilan.
What happened in 1987 was a contest for the presidency; the Umno leadership deliberately strategising to exclude anybody, those who were able to support Tengku Razaleigh and (Tun) Musa Hitam. In 1999, in Anwar's case, it was a reaction to what was done to Anwar Ibrahim. He was sacked and prosecuted and put in jail.
In both cases, it was a deliberate move by the leader himself, the president of the party to exclude those who were contesting against him. In 1987, for example, it was a follow-up from what happened for contesting the presidency. In Anwar's case, it was a clear power struggle. There were steps, things happening in the Umno Youth Assembly – the organisation of demonstrations were made clear to Dr Mahathir. It was clear that Umno was being challenged, so there was a purge.
I don't think this same situation will happen to Abdullah Badawi. The opinions he has are not an indication of a purge.
So when you get people who ask their leaders to resign, who look for who should win, people start looking to the next line-up. That's why they see after Abdullah Badawi, there's (Datuk Seri) Najib (Razak), then (Datuk Mohd) Ali Rustam, then (Tan Sri) Muhyiddin (Yassin).
But I don't think it'll head to a split or break into factions. I don't think it's going anywhere unless Umno makes a deal with Anwar Ibrahim. If that happens, maybe we'll see PAS go back to Umno (grins).
Q: There seem to be quite a number of Umno members clamouring for Pak Lah to resign. In your opinion, will changing the leader resolve the root of the problem?
SAS: To me, that's not the problem. Maybe seen through someone else's perception, through self-interests, it is.
In 1999, we received a wake-up call – let's rejuvenate Umno. I remember the discussion because I was the “no” man. I won without having any positions, I wasn't an MP. I was a supreme councillor because they wanted a “no” man; because the perception then was that Dr Mahathir was surrounded by a council of “yes” men. So, they had to look at the real reasons why people ran away.
(They) Prescribed a cure to a problem that doesn't exist. Even in the talks by (Datuk Seri Dr Mohd) Khir Toyo, that Abdullah Badawi must leave earlier, but is that a credible opinion? Coming from someone in Umno, in the BN, who lost Selangor to the Opposition, it's not seen as a strong challenge. Is he credible? I don't think so. As someone who can blame the top leadership (for their own losses).The ones who come out openly and have more venom are the ones who lost or were not candidates.
When Khir Toyo was the leader for Selangor, I was very supportive. Here is a young professional, he's got everything, he's got nothing to lose anymore.
During the election, I was prepared for a swing. I knew it was not going to be as strong as 2004. Everybody was prepared for a swing, we just didn't know how strong a swing it would be.
As far as the MIC is concerned ... I got this SMS from one guy, he said, “If Samy Vellu stands for BN, we're not going to vote for BN.” After the polls, people came up to me – and I don't know these people – they were telling me, “It's not because people don't like the product. People just don't trust the salesmen anymore.”
So, we treat the problem, not by asking the leader to go, not immediately, because then we have to see who talks, who spends. If it's Khir Toyo, I think he's lost a lot of credibility in Selangor. I've never seen anyone being pushed, being heckled in a closed door committee meeting.
As much as I prefer to look at the substance, it's hard to have credibility when you look at their opinions.
Q: Is there only one problem, one root?
SAS: People take things for granted. We all have this material side; we must have this 24-hour petrol stations, we must have our "teh tarik" – something is not right in our lifestyle, in our values. I think it's being serious about politics, that politics is service.
Q: What do you think are the exact measurements that need to be taken to resolve the problems?
SAS: By pushing for people-oriented policies, by leading a lifestyle that is more people-oriented, more moderate. You don't need to show you're better than others by how rich you are; show you're better by your sense of commitment.
But they want to be able to win and to provide patronage. So, what do you do? (shrugs)
I stood in a very balanced constituency, only 50% are Malay, but even before (the polls), I've been trying to get the party to be closer to non-party organisations. The strength of Umno when it first started was as a non-governmental organisation and behaved as such for some time. All the activities were typical of a Malay community, from social activities to sports.
Then it moved into a position where it became very political and it behaved as a political party and became more and more political, more exclusive, more about the privileges of Umno members. Must have projects, must be wealthy. We lost that edge (of being non-governmental and having a community bias).
That's why in my speeches at the places where I have been invited to, if really Umno wants to be progressive, it must return to the community.
The objective of Umno has always been about the political system, the Constitution, what its thrusts are as a political party, rather than the rights and privileges of the members.
If the members want political privileges, then they should join the various organisations that take care of their interests, the chamber of commerce and so on. As Umno leaders or members, we cannot say we as Umno members must get projects.
That growth part has made Umno leaders and members worse and to have a share of it, they see the positions in Umno as a way to benefit.
In my time, in my own area (Johor Baru), I try to make sure at grassroots level, at branch level, to talk about community needs, whether "longkang" or crime or whatever. I think I've been quite successful where Johor Baru as a division is concerned. I get the support from people. As a political party, there's been less money politics, I wouldn't say there's none, there's just less. My committee members know they won't get special privileges because of their posts.
People who are there for money, for their own self interests will just run away. And even if there's a change of government, the corporate guys will always be corporate guys.
Politics is not about making money, it's not about pursuing self interests. It has to be about community needs and interests. In the Malay lingo, the perjuangan, sacrifice, has been forgotten and is no longer valued.
In this sense, I'm the outsider.
Q: You have been a staunch Umno supporter for a very long time. You obviously believe in the party's principles. Please share with us your vision of Umno that has made you stay with the party despite your own personal setbacks time and time again.
SAS: After 15 years, I'm always seen on the other side. I think we're very comfortable, our family is very comfortable. Still, others are not so well off. But they say they want to be rich to help others. I don't think that's quite right. You can help others even if you're not rich.
I never had to use money to be in politics, except for that time I stood as an independent in 1988. Then, I sold my car to get money. You don't really need money; it's your own personality.
We have to be progressive rather than have all this hand-kissing. I've never kissed anyone's hand. When Tun Razak was around, I didn't kiss his hand. I kissed Tun Hussein's hand when he was no longer prime minister, as a mark of respect for an old man.
Aside from trying to maintain community values and getting branch leaders to think the same way. I try to include Malays who are not interested in politics but in community work, they become members of "suraus", organising community-based activities; also the non-Malays who cannot become Umno members, include the residents' associations and businesses, people who are opinion makers. I've been cultivating them, talking to them, engaging them to make things happen.
That's why I think Umno and BN can do better. It's changing the nature of Umno. There's this attraction to material wealth, seen as a way of enhancing or establishing leadership. It's one of the problems Umno has. To be seen as progressive, they become more retrogressive and feudal. They see it as the credentials (needed for leadership) rather than hard work.
I've seen this happening for many years in Umno. I see it as unfortunate.
Q: Tell me about the recent BN retreat. What happened there?
SAS: The normal things. How to behave, how to perform, be good, the situation now, before we had the numbers, the backbenchers provided the check-and-balance but even before to provide the check-and-balance, we needed to have facts.
I know Cabinet ministers were not comfortable with me when I was chairman of the BNBBC (BN Backbenchers Club), but not for personal reasons. We provide criticism and advice to the frontbenchers and party leaders.
The interesting thing now is that in the Cabinet now, there can be no party caucus anymore. So there is some separation. Except for Umno. MIC and MCA are not represented by the top party leaders, and this reflects the situation in BN. So Umno will have to provide that multiracial perception. Idealogical differences are fine as long as they benefit the community.
These are interesting times.
Q: Apparently there is a Chinese saying, “May you live in interesting times”. But they say it is a curse.
SAS: Well, it's a curse and an opportunity. Problems in a crisis also provide opportunities. Depends on how you articulate, how you lead; by getting people to share opinions, by example, by you doing the things that you tell them to.
